Re: P2 or Sony HVR-Z7U?

I was all set to buy the P2 then my boss brought up the fact that P2 cards are so expensive I'd be better off with the Sony HVR because it uses flash cards and the camera itself is as good if not better than P2. Any comments on this?

Something to consider.

The Sony shoots MPEG2 long GOP.

The Panny shoots true Intra frame video.

A world of difference.

--ken

I beg your pardon for not being up on the lingo. Could you put that in to laymen terms?

Ok thanks Ken I appreciate that. But real quick as I hope to order a camera asap am I to assume you think the P2 would be a better investment than the sony or any other camera in this price range due to it having the best picture? Because this is very important to me. My last doc "icurecancer.com" was loved by all interested in the subject and especially by a big Hollwood company that would have scooped it up for international distribution if it only had better production value. Since I had no investment or budget on that I could only use an old Canon XL-1 which just didn't cut it. So I must make sure the quality of part II that this company may very well be funding is going to look amazing and be able to hit Sundance etc... Your words of wisdom will really help me here.

Hi Steve,

Let me add to this discussion by saying I think it would be a better comparison to compare the HVX 200/A against the Sony XDCAM EX not the HVR-S270U I would think that 1/2 inch chips in the EX1 (despite it being a long GOP XDCAM format) would have overall better quality than a 1/3 inch camera like the HVX 200. I know the arguments are made for a camera that works in a 4.2.2 colorspace and a high quality codec like Panasonic's DVCPROHD cam. I currently have a pair of Sony Z1U cameras and will eventually upgrade to probably a pair of EX1 or and EX3 and EX1 camera. Better lower light, higher resolution, newer technology of the SXS format compared to P2 (translating into higher recording times on the SXS cards and more cost effective than the older P2 technology) And the camera is a true 1920x1080 (the HDCAM, it's big brother is 1440x1080) resolution. So far, Sony is the only one with 1/2 chips in a smaller camera. It will be interesting to see what Panasonic and Canon and JVC answer with in the future. But for right now, from what I've read and seen, the EX1 looks to be the best "bang for the buck" in terms of quality.

I did hear however, that there are issues with the EX1 and the shutter when there is a nearby photographer flash? Anyone know about this?

Thanks,

Scott

I agree with you on that Scott, Sony, at this moment is a talk of the town, at least
in this market segment.
P2 is overpriced, great camera though, but I just can't justify the cost of the whole set up.
It's actually going backwards, introducing a whole IT team around you (for backing up P2 cards)
in the field.

<I did hear however, that there are issues with the EX1 and the shutter when there is a nearby photographer flash? Anyone know about this?>

Happened to me once, on Canon XL2, the photographer was just next to me, a wedding.
Done lots of weddings and happened only once, so it must be only when a photographer is very very close.
Or maybe they used something other photographers don't use, some flash that is different,
as I remember she asked if she was to close !? (she must have known something about it).
Never worked with her before (or after) and I worked with all better photographers around here,
and that NEVER happened. I don't believe that none of them come that close to me
(does that tell more about me? :)

Mio

Mio

Did you just watch the 30 sec trailer at first page of site? The full trailer is under film link then video clips.
They meant low production value all around because I had zero budget. Just myself, a Canon XL-1 and FCP. And I was a very inexperienced film maker at the time knowing nothing about lighting/sound etc... So this time around I am starting from scratch and my first order of business is to get the best camera in the $5000 range to start shooting with now so when all is said and done it will be good enough for the big screen. Because the reputable company interested in possibly funding it said they would have picked up the first one if the final product was shot better. As in the information was great but just looked low rent.


What I've gathered so far from these posts is the P2 is great but too expensive for the P2 cards. Now I'm kind of confused to what would be better the Sony HVR-Z7U or the Sony XDCAM EX-1 or Sony HVR-Z7E?

What's even more confusing is when you google them and see the enormous price differences from the different shops. I've been warned not to buy the "too good to be true" deals and get from a respected dealer like B&H or Birns & Sawyer.

I've been shooting for about 8 years both corporate and low-mid budget broadcast. I just got a Z7U a few days ago and have already used it on several shoots that will be broadcast on a prominent national digital television station. I absolutely love the camera...it handles beautifully, built like a tank and the picture quality is fantastic...oh...and interchangeable lenses (I've heard the JVC100 lens shoots beautifully on the Z7...I'll let you know when I've had a chance to try one). I've cut 4-cam shoots that used 2 HVX-200s and a couple of Z1Us. Image quality is pretty close on all those cameras and as far as HDV being a problematic codec to edit on...I just don't agree. HDV cuts like DV on modern NLEs, if you want to really push the CC, then transcode before that. Or, ideally, nail it in the field. It's all about preference...if you are shooting low-budget broadcast content, corporate, wedding etc., you just can't beat the flexibility of the Z7U. Try handing off a hi-def tape to a client at the end of a shoot with the HVX. Also, I bought a 32 gig CF card for the Sony that works perfectly and cost me $110. That shoots for 148 minutes. An added benefit for freelancers is the ability to shoot hi-def to tape, hand it off to the client and have the exact same footage to take home for your reel or analysis on the CF card. The whole Panny vs. Sony or DVC vs. long GOP stuff seriously reminds me of the old Mac vs. PC days. They both get the job done. Although I love my Mac and OS X I make a lot of money on the PC...at the end of the day, it's what you prefer, I personally believe a competent shooter can get awesome, awesome footage from either an HVX or a Z7 or even a PD-150 or DVX for that matter and a competent editor can deal equally well with either codec.

<HDV cuts like DV on modern NLEs>

Does it mean - ingest as HDV through firewire or...
... then export completed timeline to QT movie,
then import that to Compressor?

That's what I was hoping to hear from someone,
tried it just last week on a FC Studio seminar,
just handling it, not shooting.
You're right, it is like a tank, bit heavy though,
well, we can't have everything.

<competent shooter can get awesome, awesome footage from either an HVX or a Z7 or even a PD-150 or DVX for that matter and a competent editor can deal equally well with either codec.>

Absolutely agree with the above.
If I was getting a good footage from my two GL2s I can definitely do it with Z7.

I was concerned as I've been seeing some DVDs from HDV and XDCAM sources,
and I was just disappointed, they must be doing something wrong then.
My DV was looking better, most of them had bad artifacts when panning
or on any movement basically.

Thank you for sharing your experience

Mio

Finally someone has addressed the CF card!!! I've been going mad trying to understand why anyone would buy a P-2 when you would also have to buy P-2 cards at $800 a pop for a mere 16 gigs? But then someone said when it came to the Sony the SXS cards are even more expensive ($900) but did allow for more footage per tape. But I kept looking up on google for memory cards for the Sony HVR and they would bring up the CF cards with 32 gigs at $128!!! So once and for all am I safe to assume with the Sony HVR-Z7U that the CF cards will work the same as a P2 card for a P2 or a SXS for the HVR?

There is one issue whaich has not come up.

The fact that Sony uses a rolling shutter combined with the CMOS chip. This does produce bad artifacting when a flash is fired. Pans can also be problematic.

--ken

Hi Ken,

Yes, that's exactly what I've heard too. The rolling shutter combined with the CMOS chip for some reason produces artifacts. A friend of mine has the EX1 and I asked him about it and he says that it's not a problem for him when filming weddings. I will have to confirm with him though.

On a side note, congrats on your new Mac baby! I just bought the same 8 core 2.8 Mac, and 8800 G-force graphics card. I got my RAM (8 gig set) and 3 1 terabyte internal drives from Other World Computing. I didn't want to spend a lot of money on an expensive HDV deck for my (Sony Z1U's) so I bought the Sony HDV clamshell $1199 from B&H. It will serve my purpose of capturing HDV and I can use it as an extra playback device/monitor when in the field. I decided to go with the Blackmagic Intensity Pro Card instead of the MXO (despite your excellent review) as I don't do a whole lot of color correction and I've also heard great things about the Intensity Pro Card. I bought a Blu Ray burner too and plan to learn Adobe Encore.

Needless to say, with all the money I've spent, new cameras don't seem a reality in the near future for me. I just felt it was time to upgrade from my dual 2.3 G5, which I by the way, also bought extra RAM for (I had 2.5 gigs, not I'll have 6.5 gigs)

Thanks,

Scott

Never heard about that. how bad is it?
How close a flash has to be to cause artifacting?

In my case (Canon XM2) happened when her still camera was probably only 30 cm from my camera.

Is it caused by some sort of electrical charging / impulse or what?

Mio

Mio

Did you just watch the 30 sec trailer at first page of site? The full trailer is under film link then video clips.
They meant low production value all around because I had zero budget. Just myself, a Canon XL-1 and FCP. And I was a very inexperienced film maker at the time knowing nothing about lighting/sound etc... So this time around I am starting from scratch and my first order of business is to get the best camera in the $5000 range to start shooting with now so when all is said and done it will be good enough for the big screen. Because the reputable company interested in possibly funding it said they would have picked up the first one if the final product was shot better. As in the information was great but just looked low rent.


What I've gathered so far from these posts is the P2 is great but too expensive for the P2 cards. Now I'm kind of confused to what would be better the Sony HVR-Z7U or the Sony XDCAM EX-1 or Sony HVR-Z7E?

What's even more confusing is when you google them and see the enormous price differences from the different shops. I've been warned not to buy the "too good to be true" deals and get from a respected dealer like B&H or Birns & Sawyer.

gijacklin

Watched the 5 min clip as well later.
Hmm, a good tripod would have probably saved the day, although there
were other issues, previously mentioned.

Best way to pick the camera is to try it (borrow or hire) before you buy.

If you were on a tight budget, you need to consider the format (just noticed, Ken suggested the same),
as the format will influence how big additional cost can be involved (hard drives, array, capture cards, monitor etc.).

Mio

Have posted this question before regarding the Panasonic ... is there a shoulder attachment of some sort for the HVX 200A?

Hi Steve,

I'm not knocking the HVX 200. I've shot with it before and think it's a great camera. I do, however prefer Sony. Yes, HDV is more of a consumer/prosumer grade. But a lot of news stations are using the HD XDCAM shoulder mount cameras. They are slowly replacing the older Betacam SP and SX cameras. The image quality from those cameras is great and the lower costs of storage of the SXS cards over the older technolgy P2 cards as well as the ability to record much more time on the cards is a big sale for Sony. One drawback, as you stated is that the Sony won't shoot standard defintion, which is a problem if you're a freelancer and have to hand over tape right after the shoot. And the other drawback being the rolling shutter.

Aside from that, the EX1 and EX3 are arguably the best bang for the buck in that price range. They are superior in lower light, 1/2 chip vs 1/3 inch chip, film at a true 1920x1080 resolution...

My vote goes to Sony.

Scott

Scott

I started this discussion and appreciate all the input although now I'm really torn as both sides sound great. I wanted to ask if the HVR-Z7U is as good as the EX-1? My reason for liking the HVR-Z7U is because you can record HD to tape which drops all my worries on having to spend money on P2 cards or buying a FS-100 which for that matter might as well just buy a Macbook pro if I was to get the P2. I notice the EX-1 doesn't have tape at all so would have to buy the cards for it. Is that a big deal? Are they crazy expensive like the P2's? Is it as cheap as just buying HD tapes?

peace
ian

The rolling shutter/flash problem can not be overstated.

It's for real.

--ken

Since everybody is talking so much about this flutter flash thing I figured I'd better chance sounding stupid and ask what does that actually mean? If someone takes a flash picture while you are recording it just flashes on your recording and then goes back to normal or does it totally screw up the whole shot, whole tape, whole camera?

Imagine a white bar going through your frame. It is very easy to see and replicate. In most situations, the rolling shutter issue wouldn't be a problem but I can think of many where it would be ie; around anyone taking pics with a flash, revolving lights on a police car, ambulance, in a night club or an event of some kind, street lights at night, filming planes at night during take off or landing and probably lots more I can't currently think of. It really can ruin a clip.
Steve Douglas, not Steve Eisen (gggggggg)

The camera flashes once and then a ghoast blast of light gets repeated in other parts of the frame as the video rolls.

--ken

Ken

So when the camera flashes and you get a white bar across that one frame and then more ghost bars as it rolls what is the fix to this problem? Just stop and restart the record button? Or power off then off?

It can look different from event to event.

There is no way to fix it. You would have to reshoot.

--ken

Hi Ian,

It's not really a fair comparison to compare an HDV camera like the Z7U to the HVX 200/A. A better comparison is the HVX to the Sony EX1. Both cameras shoot on memory cards. Yes, the SXS cards are significantly cheaper than the P2 cards. I just looked on B& H website: A 16 gig P2 card is $849; a 16 gig SXS card is $899. However, you can only record 16 minutes of the highest quality DVCPROHD to those cards whereas you can record about 100 minutes of the highest quality XDCAM footage to an SXS card. Now, of course I am comparing apples to oranges as the DVCPRO Codec is a 4.2.2 colorspace and 100mbps compression and the XDCAM EX is 35mbps and a 4.2.0 colorspace. DVCPRO is a better codec to edit with. However, it is my understanding that with Apple Pro Res you're footage will look great with the EX1. Footage I have seen both edited natively in the XDCAM format and transcoded to ProRes both looked outstanding!

Tape will be the cheapest route hands down. You can even record HDV on a cheap DV tape ( I use Sony Premium Tapes) that sell as low as about $2 and change online. Regarding your comment about the Mac Book Pro. It has Express Card slots, not P2 like some older computers. If you shoot SXS format all you have to do is slide the card into the side of the mac Book Pro. A couple of nice things about the Z7U are that it shoots progressive, both to tape and Compact Flash card and has interchangeable lenses. I did hear howver, that there were some auto focusing issues with it. You may want to check the online boards on this.

What camera will suit you best? Well, here's a few questions you need to ask yourself:
(1) Will you be filming/editing your own projects or freelancing for other companies/clients?
(2) What do you film?
(3) What is your budget? If you go the EX1 or the HVX 200 route, it's not just the cost of the camera. You need to factor in memory card costs, extra hard drives, maybe a Blu ray burner to back up your data files once you clear your cards' memory, maybe an XDCAM deck if you need to archive to XDCAM not consumer Blu-Ray, etc.
(4) Do you need to shoot in SD at all? Or can you film everything in High Def?
(5)If you can film strictly in High Def, which format? DVCPROHD, XDCAM? HDV?

I currently film with a pair of Z1U's for my own events and love them. If I were to upgrade ( in a year or so) I would probably go the EX1 route and keep at least one Z1U camera for standard def shoots.

Hope this helps!

Scott

Scott and anyone else

Wow that was a lot of good food for thought thank you. To be honest I'm more of a producer/director and not much of a tech guy so I could really use some advice as you will know better than I. I should be getting funding for my next doc but I can't wait till the money comes in as there are events happening now I have to get on camera. Since I'm a starving artist if I'm lucky I'll get a 10 thousand dollar loan. With that I need a camera that will capture footage comperable (or at least not totally horrible) to what ever we end up shooting with down the line. I've been told by someone that supposedly knows about shooting video I need:

a Manfrotto 3192 pro video tripod and the 516 head which comes to = $984.

a Sony ECM-55B - Omni Directional Lavalier Condenser Mic = $274.95

And a car which I'm alloting about $3000.

That leaves me about $5700 for a camera so doesn't leave me much for cards or anything else. That's why I figure as long as I can record to tape I'll be alright. I'm only shooting interviews with doctors and patients mostly indoors.

As far as format's go I honestly have no idea. I'll want it to be as good quality as possible as the money people expect it to hit Sundance and all the other big ones so it's got to be good.

Do you think I really should drop a grand on tripod? Couldn't I get by on something cheaper since there are no camera movements? That could allot more to the camera itself.

Hi Ian,

Remember content is king no matter if you're shooting VHS, DV, HDV, or HD. And a camera will only perform as well as the operator who is using that camera. As far as tripods go, no you don't need to spend a $1000. You can get a Bogen tripod with a 501 head for around $400-$650 depending on the model. I think the Bogen 525 MVB with a 501 head is around $650.00 at B&H. A nice tripod with a bubble leveler. Or you can get a less expensive tripod like the Bogen 3221 or 2046 for a couple hundred less. Look, I've used $10,000 Sachtler tripods for Betacam shoots and cheaper Bogen and Sachtler tripods for DV cameras. You'll be fine with a less expensive Bogen for any of these smaller cameras.

If you're video is not for broadcast, the Sony Z7 or even the Z1U would be a fine choice. Did the cleint specify that the video had to be HD? If not, a Panasonic DVX 100 is not a bad choice either, but it's only standard def, but shoots 24p. Make sure you have proper lighting as well.

Good luck!

Scott

Sorry I didn't make that question clear. What I want to know is am I going to be able to spend $35 for a 2 gig flash card to go with the Sony HVR-Z7U and be okay with that? Or will I have to spend $899 for a SxS card and what's the difference?

SxS cards are not that expensive, check your prices.

--ken

What is the difference between this: SanDisk Ultra II CompactFlash 4GB CF Memory Card: $31.99 and a Sony SBP-16 SxS Pro Memory Card - 16GB (10 @ $857.68) (20 @ $849.00)? Do both work? If so why would one bother with the sxs?

The cheaper SxS cards do not have the throughput of the cards designed specifically for the camera, that's why the cards are more expensive.

The cheap SxS cards will not work in a camera. You must buy SxS cards designed for camera use.

--ken

Scott

I just found this: SONY HVR-Z7U SanDisk Ultra II CompactFlash 4GB CF Memory Card for $31.99. You mentioned something in your post unless I misunderstood you that the cards for the HVR were $899? So what am I missing here?

Why are P2 cards so much more expensive than SxS cards? For one thing, SxS cards can record data rates up to 35 mbps. P2 cards, which are used to store DVCPRO HD footage have to have a much faster record rate of 100 mbps.

--ken

Isn't there also a significantly greater compression with the Sony cards as well. I believe this would make for less color saturation and overall resolution.
Steve

Correct, the heavy compression is what allows 1920 x 1080 full raster video to be recorded to the SxS card at 35 mbps.

--ken

Let me know if I have a grasp as to this compression thing. Is it like when I run a 2 gig fcp quick time final edit through compressor and it makes it small enough for web by only saving the pixels that actually move and leaves the static back ground the same? And if so then what is the big deal about compressing when shooting? If the back ground doesn't change any way why use all that space to record same pixel/frame ratio? Don't know if that made any sense but hopefully you know what I'm getting at.

Compressing for web playback is one thing. All that has to happen is that the video play back.

When you use MPEG 2 long GOP video compression during acquisition, (recording in the camera), that video has to go into FCP for ediing. Editing MPEG2 video is much more difficult. The color space is 4:2:0 (low color space), so color correcting is difficult, chromakeying and compositing effects are equally compromised. There are other issues as well, for example, the long GOP format is comprised of 15 frames per GOP. When you have finished editing, you'll need to go through a very long 'conform' process before output.

--ken

I see. I think I'm going to go with the P2 although that will add $2000 to my expence as I will have to buy a mac pro laptop to have with me on shoots. Correct me if I'm wrong but if I get the P2 that comes with the 16 gig card and get the mac pro that should be all I need for one on one interviews in offices, rooms, etc. I figure to buy another 16 gig card which will only give me 16 more minutes of recording time will run me $900. To get the Firestore would be $1700. So might as well just spend the $2000 and have a lap top to boot on top of storage space. And I will be able to go right from camera to computer won't I? Won't have to stop interview every 16 minutes to transfer data I hope?

sbeisen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can debate all day HDV/XDCAM EX vs DVCPro HD.
> Bottom line, HDV is a Consumer/Prosumer format vs
> DVCPro HD Professional format. HDV is a low cost
> alternative to shooting in HD. If someone wants
> the most flexibility in shooting DV/HD with a
> camera, HVX-200 is the way to go. The Sony does
> not offer that.
>
> Yes there are shoulder supports for the HVX.
> DVTEC and Zacuto have great supports.

Also, here is something else to consider. Given that the HVX200 in DVCProHD100 uses a gig a minute anyone wanting to do some "serious" shooting will require an on staff IT person to manage and keep up with P2 cards let alone at least 3 cards to keep the flow going. We know, we had two HVX's in a shooting arrangement and unless you are doing 16 mins only you are either gong to delay your production crew and talent OR you need several thousand in cards and by that I mean multiple thousands. Three cards will give you a continuous workflow from the camera although the ingest time for 120 mins of video is about 40 to 60 mins and unless you compress the rendering codec you will need a LOT of computing power and anyone who says otherwise has never actually rendered native DVCProHD100. A 9 minute video for use took about 4 hours to render on 3.6 GHz Xeon x 2 with 4 Gb ram in two different editors and over 200 Gb's of space total for media and render and that was only 9 mins wth graphics and titles. This if fixable by simply chosing an MPEG codec and then the power isn't necessary but then isn't the idea in the beginning of I-frame 100mbs stream to get a higher end res production? But if compression the render and then it's only going out to MPEG2 DVD what's the difference?

We dumped both our HVX200 cameras because of the IT workflow and space requirement let alone we totally lost 4 production shoots through operator error in a period of 6 months and thus the tape/solid state of the z7 is an answer and after all, as the Mac video stated which resounds what we said corporately . . "...don't bury me with a bunch of technical information that I quite frankly don't understand at all, show me the picture, the ease of use, and the archivability, and that will be the deciding factors, not technical specs."

Here it is in a nutshell, "Astectics, Accessibilty, and Archiving."

Astetics = the look and feel of the image
Accessibility = the ease of ingesting, editing, and exporting
Archiving = the ability to have it for long term easily

Tape lasts and is easy to store and is hard to lose mechanically. Even a broken tape (we've had 1 total in over 150 productions per year) is repairable. The one we had in our company's existence was repairable for $25US and only lost about 6 secs of video.

HVX expensive archiving, hard to access the data and keep it that way without further compressing it after ingesting for render, and definately a challenge to archive and HDD's isn't an answer no matter how cheap. In our company's history we've seen failures: 7 SD cards, 3 mulitimedia cards, 4 hard disk drives (good names too), and gads of floppy's which we don't even have one now and 1 tape (that was repairable) BTW, we often recycle tapes for ALL our TV productions and to date shoot 18 tapes a month and recycling them over and over and over and over, we've lost about 1/2 a dozen all of which were destroyed in a rewinder (again all could have been repaired but we didn't need them because the TV shows we only archive the timeline on tape after burned out to DVD . . AND . . the tape losses were eliminated when we just went ahead and bought a new rewinder that the tapes quit getting stuck in.

Z7U low cost acquistion, low cost archiving, ease of use, and great picture as is with most ALL HDV's. Why even Pansonic believes in the long GOP . . they just came out with an entire series of AVCHD cameras and solutions that is long GOP, so it must not be that bad in their opionion. In fact, it was this factor alone that sold me on not worrying about long GOP. If they think it's good and all their experts were saying it, then HDV or AVCHD long GOP what's the difference? Look at the picture and tell me. One picture? OK, big deal. On the whole what works easy, effortlessly, and affordably. HDV.

sbeisen

Thank you so much for your post! I have been so torn between these two cameras and then the EX-1 one was thrown in as well and every camp swears by each one. But the bottom lines are like you said, "Astectics, Accessibilty, and Archiving." And my most important factor $$$$$!!!!

So thanks to now knowing I would have to buy 3 cards to make work flow workable I'm definitely going with the sony HVR-Z7U! And I don't care what they say about tapes to me they are the safest way to archive.

Thanks to everyone for helping out!
peace
ian

I had a chance to play with the EX-1 a bit over the weekend at H20 Photo Pros in Newport Beach, Ca. where I was giving a FCP seminar. The footage was excellent with great color resolution and depth. The low light abilities really and positively surprised me. However, the rolling shutter issue was very evident in a clip where the EX-1 user was filming an underwater photographer. When the photographers' strobes went off, the rolling shutter was as clear as a bell. The only other complaint I had is that if you are going to do any hand held work with the EX-1, forgettaboutit. It is the poorest, ergonomically designed cam I have held. There are no edges to the body, it is all curves and holding a horizon steady was terribly difficult. Since much of the work I do demands hand held shots, as much as I loved the quality footage and low lux, the EX-1 is probably not in my future.
Steve

What it seems to be boiling down to is the cost for me after buying the camera. If both camera's produce a similar final product then since I'm on limited funds I should go with the Sony due to it's memory cards being so affordable and the fact if nothing else can just record in HD to tape. If the P2 had this function I would go with it but no sense in having an HD camera if you can't afford the cards and can't record HD to tape. Am I wrong?

Other question is this. If I buy the sony and eventually get a huge budget and then buy the P2 will I be able to mix the two formats when editing with out there being a major discrepancy?

Thank you for everyone guiding me through this.

I am going to give my opinion and I want to state that I have no particular brand loyalty so i feel my comments are objective. I would NEVER opt for an HDV camera over a DVCPRO HD... NEVER. It is a problematic codec at best and the other problems that exist with the Sony would preclude me from even considering it. I was on a 3 camera shoot in NY recently and one of the cameras was the Sony the other two were Panasonics. I was there at the editing for a while and there was quite a difference in the workflow just to get the HDV footage what the editor would consider "workable" and he was a far more experienced editor than I. I have a few suggestions that may be of some value:
1. Buy a used Panasonic HVX 200 and used P2 Cards
2. Buy a used HVX 200 and rent the P2 cards when you have to
3. Buy a new HVX 200 and it comes with 1 16GIG P2 card and buy others used or rent
4. Buy a new HVX 200A and a used Firestore 100
5. Any combination above

I have the FS 100 and I love it for many reasons but I do a a caveat: make sure you rig the connection to the camera with some silicon or something similar to ensure a tight connection. HDV is a consumer codec/format in my opinion and has no place in a professional environment... hate it, wouldn't use it! I love my HVX 200 and am in the market for the HVX 200A- little concerned about the tapeless version of these cameras that's coming in the fall, read that it's NOT the same cam but without tape transport... but it should be a grand less.