Re: GH2 AVCHD FCP7 WORKFLOW

Hi, I am new here, sorry if my questions are basic. In these days I am importing avchd files from my hacked GH2. Log and transfer, transcoding to apple prores 422 (HQ), without any problems into FCP7 on my Macbook Pro 13" i5 2.3GHZ. Editing quick and smooth, video transitions in realtime no rendering (always copying the whole bundle of avchd files, like "dcim, misc and private", if not it gets confused!). I am testing a lot with the new hacked settings with bitrates of 66mbs right now. Everything is fine - apart from when the camera moves (pans) or there is normal quicker motion (a person walks or moves) my image has horizontal lines flashing, like in old video tape times, the dropouts. So a friend told me, why I am working in such a high resolution, I should work in very low resolution, to avoid stressing my computer, maybe its on its limit. She said, imagine you have 10-15 hours of footage and put it all on to your computer! - I was very astonished, I was editing 15 years ago with "offline-" and "online-quality" on an old but phantastic programm called "D-Vision" (that was the best!). I thought nowadays I can work directly in my highest quality with all these lovely machines. So, what would be the correct workflow? Do I have to use lower quality import settings and then recapture with higher settings? If this is still the correct workflow to do, are there any workflow descriptions where I can learn how to do that? Thanks so much for any advise, cheers.

You should be able to edit full frame HD ProRes without any problems on this computer. But before we start tackling the issue you are having please allow me to make a few general remarks.

1. You are shooting in AVCHD. No matter at what bitrate this is a 4:2:0, 8-bit format. So I see no need nor any advantage to convert this type of format to ProResHQ. Regular ProRes will be more than sufficient, it will take up less drive space, it will be less taxing on your system and you will get exactly the same quality in the end. Only use ProResHQ when you need to convert high-end 4:2:2, 10-bit originated footage such as AVC Intra 100.

2. You say "imagine you have 10-15 hours of footage and put it all on to your computer!" I hope this doesn't mean you are actually storing your footage on your internal drive, do you? To comfortably edit full frame HD media you absolutely need to put all your media on a fast external drive.

If you use regular ProRes as your editing format and you keep your ProRes media on a fast external drive you should be good. Now if you have been editing without any problems so far and all of a sudden you get these issues you describe you have to ask yourself: what has changed since all went well and now?

You say you have been testing this hack to record at higher bitrates and you get horizontal lines in your video. Open your ProRes files in QT7 and watch the files play. Do you see the lines in QT player? If you see the problem in your QT player there is nothing wrong with your computer, there is something wrong with your recorded or converted media.

If the clips play fine in QT player but not in FCP7 there are a couple of things you can try:

1. Open a project with footage you have used before and where you are sure you had no issues. Check if it still plays without any glitches. If the old project plays fine there is something wrong with your new media.

If the old project has the same issues:

2. Trash your FCP7 preferences and try again. If this still doesn't help:

3. You could have a faulty graphics card. Have your MBP checked by an authorized Apple technician.

Try these troubleshooting tips to start with and get back to us if you still have problems.

Best wishes,

Ronny

Thanks so much, Ronny, for the quick response.
1. I tried already with the normal ProRes 422 (without the HQ) and the footage, once imported into fcp, is slightly out of focus, like a soft-focus. If I use the ProRes 422 (HQ) modus, the footage is perfectly sharp. I had done this test before I hacked the camera, so it has nothing to do with the hacking, and as far as I know, other users on vimeo and personal view also use the HQ modus, like also another plugin from canon, the EOS plugin ProRes 422 (HQ), which works fine. I really don't understand which modus is right, but I think the HQ one (?)

2. So you basically say, that I can always stay in my whatever ProRes modus and don't have to import the footage in a lower quality? Obviously when I have 10-15 hours of footage I will use my external hard drives, but right now I am testing everything to have a good workflow, and all the footage is about a few minutes long, so I am editing from my local hard drive. Could that already be a fundamental error?

3. Right now I have shot new material on purpose and yes, the footage looks fine on my MPlayerX (thats the player I use, its very good for .MTS files) and once imported into FCP, I have again these crashing lines on quick camera movements (panning). I am shooting in the phantastic gh2 cinema modus progressive 24p.

4. Unfortunately I don't have any footage from the before hacking time any more, my computer is just new. But I think the problem is in FCP.

5. What else could I test? Trashing my settings? What settings exactly should I trash? What other settings should I try? I trashed the ProRes 422 HQ settings in "Audio/Video Settings" and put it to ProRes 422. But the crashing lines are still there.

If you have any other ideas, it would be very much appreciated. Cheers

Before doing anything else, try this: play your footage in the timeline until you see the problem lines appear. Set an In-point just before the problematic shot and an Out point after it and export this part of your sequence to a QT movie.

Open the exported QT movie in QT player (not any other one). My guess is the lines won't be there anymore. Can you confirm this?

Best wishes,

Ronny

Ronny, you are right! The QT movie looks ok, the crashed lines disappeared! That means its only a performance problem of FCP, right? As long as the final product looks ok, there is no serious problem. Now I have to test out, until I find where it comes from. Thanks so far, it was a great help, but still must locate the error.

There is no error, nor is there anything wrong with your computer nor with FCP. This is a well-known problem with 24p video that has been shot with DSLRs. I will explain this in detail in a further reply, but first do the following so I know if I'm on the right track:

Open your FCP project and in the Browser select a ProRes clip from your imported Lumix footage. Scroll through the Clip Properties of the clip until you see "Field Dominance". Does it say "Upper (Odd)" or "None"?

Best wishes,

Ronny

Sorry to be late, Ronny, was busy. It says "NONE".

This is a good thing, it means that FCP has correctly interpreted your original footage as being progressive and has converted it into ProRes progressive during import. So the problem is not in the progressive flag (I will explain this later).

Now to the next step in our troubleshooting:

Open one of the ProRes files from your imported Lumix footage in QuickTime player. Make sure to select a clip that has fast movement and that shows these lines in FCP. My guess is it will look okay.

Then manually resize the QT player to less than 50% of its original size. My guess is you will see the lines. Am I correct?

Best wishes,

Ronny

The QT says, cannot play this kind of file (.MTS). I rezeided it with the MPlayerX manually and the lines were not there. The image looked ok. Cheers

Inspired by your idea I checked this: the disturbing lines seem to appear only if I playback the timeline in the full-screen modus. (I always do the playback in the full-screen modus for better image quality.) But if I playback them in the normal canvas size, it looks good. Not 100% sure, because of the size difference, but I zoomed in, and it seems they are not there. What could be wrong then with the full screen modus?

Thanks so much Ronny, you are so patient and helpful with your explanations, I am learning a lot through my errors.
So when I see the footage correctly through my MPlayerX in the full screen modus means, the player has previously downscaled it from 1920x1080 to 1280x800?

No problem, that's what we are here for.

Yes that's exactly what happens. As opposed to Full Screen mode in FCP (called Digital Cinema Desktop Preview), your MPlayerX needs only few system resources to scale down your video to fit your screen. Digital Cinema Desktop Preview is not pixel accurate and can produce artifacts. If you want to view your HD footage on a larger screen you can either connect a second monitor that has a higher native resolution than 1920x1080, or a high def television. The extra advantage of viewing your video on an external screen is that you can actually edit while viewing your video, which you cannot do in FCP Full Screen Display.

Best wishes,

Ronny

Great, for now I live with my little MBP 13", knowing the final product is ok. I thank you so much for your help and hopefully somebody else could learn something through our little discussion too. Cheers mate!

Hi Ronny, sorry I am contacting you again. I don't know if I should do it through this discussion or open a new one? The images on my camera lcd screen seem to look a bit brighter than on my MBP 13". I was not really aware of that before, but now with the new gh2 hack I can really see a difference. So what is the one that I should take like the default or the correct light? The camera lcd or the MBP-screen? Camera lcd and camera viewer look the same and are from the default calibration. But MBP-screen is darker. Its quiet a delicate decision, one of them is wrong. Cheers

... " the camera lcd will give you the most reliable image because it uses the external video output of FCP which is of a higher quality than the internal Viewer."
Don't understand. Why the video output of FCP? Or do you mean, video output of HDMI? Once again, thanks so much Ronny

Some people use a video camera as an interface between their computer and their external video monitor or tv. I thought you had connected a video camera to your MBP and you used the External Video output of FCP to view your edit on the camera lcd. That's why I said the Video Output of FCP is more reliable than the Viewer inside the FCP interface.

Best wishes,

Ronny

No, I only have my GH2 and my MBP, and no other way of comparing the images right now. Sorry. Somehow I must figure out what is the right light level to consider. I just think that the MBP has a less luminous screen than other computers, like for example the bigger Macbook Pros like the 15 or 17 inch. Cheers

Hi Ronny,
Is there any solution for this: (FCP Tutorial) "When you ingest AVCHD files using the Log and Transfer window, video is transcoded to either an Apple ProRes codec or the Apple Intermediate Codec. AVCHD has a much higher compression ratio than Apple ProRes, so the ingested files are significantly larger than the original files."
Significantly larger means concretely: 4 times as big with ProRes 422 LQ, 8 times as big with ProRes 422 and nearly 10 times as big with ProRes HQ !!! This is quiet a problem. Due to the "hack" and the dramatic increase of quality and bitrates the files became huge.
An example: A 2 minutes take is more or less 1GB big with my settings. After transcoding 2 minutes would be 4, 8 or even 10GB big! Imagine for a documentary, how much storage space you would need.
So my question are:
- Is there any other ProRes codec, that would let me stay around the same size as the original files, and work offline?
- Do the converter softwares (like aunsoft) also increase the size of the files?
- Are there any other solutions and what would be the right way to go?

Adobe Premiere doesn't need to convert avchd files. They are lucky.

Thank you so much for your attention, Ronny
Cheers
Lucian

Thanks, Ronny, I will just live with the fact, that my screen is a bit darker than the screen of my camera and judge my recording levels through the camera. Cheers

Hi Ronny,
Is there any solution for this: (FCP Tutorial) "When you ingest AVCHD files using the Log and Transfer window, video is transcoded to either an Apple ProRes codec or the Apple Intermediate Codec. AVCHD has a much higher compression ratio than Apple ProRes, so the ingested files are significantly larger than the original files."
Significantly larger means concretely: 4 times as big with ProRes 422 LQ, 8 times as big with ProRes 422 and nearly 10 times as big with ProRes HQ !!! This is quiet a problem. Due to the "hack" and the dramatic increase of quality and bitrates the files became huge.
An example: A 2 minutes take is more or less 1GB big with my settings. After transcoding 2 minutes would be 4, 8 or even 10GB big! Imagine for a documentary, how much storage space you would need.
So my question are:
- Is there any other ProRes codec, that would let me stay around the same size as the original files, and work offline?
- Do the converter softwares (like aunsoft) also increase the size of the files?
- Are there any other solutions and what would be the right way to go?

Adobe Premiere doesn't need to convert avchd files. They are lucky.

Thank you so much for your attention, Ronny
Cheers
Lucian

P.S. I dont know, why my last message went up there as the before last message...

Hi Lucian,

AVCHD is a compromise: the codec allows you to record relatively high quality HD media with low storage requirements, which makes it ideal for low cost cameras. But every compromise has its price. Each frame in AVCHD only contains partial information of the picture, the remaining pixels have to be found in the following or preceding frames in able to reconstruct the entire frame. This puts a lot of strain on computers to playback AVCHD and to convert AVCHD to full frame formats.

Nowadays computers are fast enough to playback AVCHD on the fly. The big problem is that editing applications not only have to playback media, they have to decompress the media on the fly and recompress them when exporting to a delivery format. And each extra layer in your timeline requires extra horsepower for playback and conversion.

There have always been two ways of dealing with highly compressed non full-frame media: either you edit them natively or you convert the non full-frame media to a full-frame codec prior to editing.

The first method seems faster (no conversion) and it works with the original highly compressed media media (smaller file sizes). But this method also has a high price: because of the strain it puts on your system resources you only have a very limited amount of real time playback on multiple video layers, even on very fast computers and with GPU acceleration, and the final conversion to your delivery format is very long. This is what you experience when working with AVCHD natively using Premiere or any other NLE that natively supports AVCHD. You pay a price, because there simply are no miracles in video editing. Only when computers will become much, much faster than they are today this method will become a better option.

The second method first converts your non full-frame media to very high quality full-frame media (such as ProRes). This allows you to edit very fast (lots of realtime) even with multiple layers of full HD media on your timeline, and the final conversion process to a delivery format is also much faster because the media on your timeline already are full frame. The drawback of this method is that the converted ("optimized") files are much bigger, and that the conversion process takes time.

In days where storage is incredibly cheap the bigger file size should be no issue at all when compared to the faster editing and the better quality you get with ProRes. AVCHD allows you to record relatively high quality with cheaper cameras, so a little bit of the money you save there can easily be spent on good and fast storage.

The extra time the conversion takes is no argument either. FCPX converts on the fly while importing, so does legacy FCP (with the appropriate plugins from the camera manufacturers installed). And for people who insist on doing the conversion to ProRes prior to editing using an external application (such as Compressor or many others) this is no real issue either: you can let the app do the conversion overnight so you don't lose any time at all (that's what most of us have done prior to FCPX).

So the choice is yours: invest in cheap fast storage and work with high quality edit-friendly media or use an NLE that works with AVCHD natively and pay the price while editing. FCPX will support AVCHD natively soon, but the price you will pay for this will be the same.

Best wishes,

Ronny

Hi Ronny,

thanks again so much for your kind explanations. I really do understand the issue much better now than before. I think I will stay then with FCP and use bigger storage space. The best is to keep the workflow as simple and reliable as possible I think, and if that means buy a few Hard disks more, thats a minor "price" for it.

- What do you think about offline/online editing with the ProRes Proxy codec? As I know from my past and as I can read on several forums, there is always the possibility of problems in the moment of "recapture" in higher quality from the original files.

- I was reading this on CreativeCow:
"You should be using Pro Res LT(102Mbps) or Pro Res Proxy(45Mbps).
You won't gain any perceptible quality by transcoding Standard ProRES(146Mbps) or ProRES(HQ) 220Mbps since your original material was 25Mbps and 17Mbp. You'll just get massive file sizes."

If thats true, it would be enough quality for my purposes to use the ProRes Proxy (45Mbps), as I am shooting with a 44Mbps bitrate hack on the GH2. Or would you recommend to use a higher one like ProRes LT or even Standard ProRes?

Cheers
Lucian